the report also criticizes the obama administration for what it calls "excessive secrecy." two members of the task force that produced the report join us now. james jones, a former democratic congressman and ambassador to mexico, co-chaired the group along with republican asa hutchinson. also with us is david irvine, a retired army brigadier general and former republican state legislator. and welcome to both of you. >> thank you. >> brown: jim jones, indisputable that the united states practiced torture. at the time the justice department said otherwise, that within very strict rules this was not torture. what made you say this was? >> well, an exhaustive study of the laws of court cases, of the practice, of interviews and the summary of all of it was it was indisputable there was torture in many cases. >> brown: just to be clear: you didn't have subpoena power here and so how were you doing it? you said by talking to people? >> well, the staff and some of the panel members visited several countries, visited the black sites where some of these were in poland, lithuania, et